Episode #26 China Forbes from Pink Martini

Interviews

Apr 30

Welcome to Living A Vocal Life: A Podcast For Singers!

Welcome to the Living A Vocal Life Podcast, where I interview singers who have succeeded in creating a life in music. You’ll hear from vocalists of all genres, in different stages of their careers, including singers who’ve been on the Billboard charts and those who are teaching the next generation. What do they have in common? They're all performers with amazing stories to tell and experiences to share.

In our conversations, you’ll learn what inspired them to become a singer, the kinds of challenges they’ve encountered, and how they've overcome them. I'll also share what I've learned on my own journey as a singer and educator — practical tools and insights that will help you to live your best, most authentic vocal life.

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China Forbes from Pink Martini singing into a microphone with her eyes closed.

This month’s guest is China Forbes, whose voice is heard around the world. She’s the lead vocalist for the globe-trotting band Pink Martini. You might have seen her on Letterman, Late Night with Conan O’Brien, The Tonight Show, or over 70 different symphonies. You can hear her voice on duets with people like Michael Feinstein, Carol Channing, and Rufus Wainwright. And she’s performed in venues from Carnegie Hall to Red Rocks, the Sydney Opera House to the Grand Rex in Paris.

Our conversation takes us on a fascinating journey: from growing up with a bipolar father through her first musical endeavors as a student at Harvard (She graduated cum laude.) Meeting Thomas Lauderdale, her decision to give up a career in NYC to join a band way out in Oregon, and striking a balance between motherhood and art.

We also talk about her solo projects, how to sing in 25 different languages, vocal fold surgery, and how to pack just two suitcases for a world tour.

Buckle up and enjoy!

“I’ve been making sense of my childhood for my whole life. And because I became an artist because of my childhood, I have to write about whatever I’m dealing with, you know? And so it’s always cathartic.”

— China Forbes

Links:

You can find China Forbes on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and Pink Martini’s website.

The songs from today’s episode are (in order of appearance): Una Notte A Napoli, ‘78, Sympathique, Rise, and Hey Eugene and are from Hang On Little Tomato, ‘78, Sympathique, Rise, and Hey Eugene (used with permission.) To listen or download, go to Pink Martini’s STORE or HERE on Apple Music.

You’ll find the solo podcast episode I referenced called Learn To Talk So You Can Save Your Voice For Singing, go HERE.

Theme music for the Podcast was composed by John Smith. He helps me edit all the podcast episodes too. (Thanks, honey!)

Valerie: Thank you China, for being on the podcast today and for persevering through all our technical difficulties! I think, you know, plan C, it's going to work!
China: Let's just not get to plan H.
Valerie: Right? You have a gala tonight. We don't have time for that. We really don't have time for plan H.
So, um, the first question I ask everyone who I interview here on the podcast is what's your first memory of singing? How old were you and where were you?
China: I was in my Cambridge apartment. It was right on the cusp of my mom living there and then leaving to go to New York and then my dad moving in -so over those years. Singing with my sister along to the soundtrack to Oklahoma, and My Fair Lady, and Jesus Christ Superstar, and all of the records in my parent's record collection.
And there was just a lot of singing in the house, loud, loud singing. But it was when I was eight years old that I really discovered Donna Summer and decided that I wanted to be a singer.
[00:05:28] Donna Summer
Valerie: So how did you discover Donna Summer?
China: I used to listen to Kiss 108, which was the R&B station. And in fact, I'm vaguely traumatized by that because I had this white Sony alarm clock with red digital numbers that I thought was so cool. And I set it to wake me up to the station. And the songs, Cupid, Drawback Your Bow and Sugar Pie Honeybunch, woke me up every morning. And so I, I literally hate those songs. They're they're perfectly good songs. But I hate them and they make me like stressed. But anyway, um, I'm not a morning person.
So I knew of Donna Summer, but I think the cool part about this story is that her record Live And More, which was the tri-fold record with all the pictures of her inside, so extra real estate to show her in feathers and glitter, um, I bought that record with my own money. It was the first record I ever bought and I would just dream looking at these pictures of being a singer, like just like her. And, um, I knew that I would someday, but I didn't actually pursue it until I was grown.
Valerie: There's something about Donna Summer that reminded you of your mom. And that was, and that was a special thing for you because your mom left when you were only eight years old to go to Columbia Business School, to get a degree that would allow her to get a better job and send you and Maya to a better school.
And she, she was gone. So what about Donna Summer connected you with your mom?
China: I think she kind of looked like my mom, like they had the same hairdo and so my mom was gone, but then I had this voice and this image of a beautiful woman who was like a substitute for my mom, my babysitter, she kept me company, I listened to her record. And she talked about her own child, Mimi and how she was always gone, singing, I know you're so patient, I love you. I'm sorry I'm never there to tuck you in at night. You know, it was just, so it was so parallel, My mom was gone and then now I'm gone. I repeated history. And so I'm not there for my own child who's 13 and I've missed, half of his life being on the road. It's sad.
Valerie: That's wild how that circle of life thing comes around in some ways that are sad like that. But how, I mean, how amazing as an eight year old, first of all, the glitter, of course, you're going to
China: Her eye shadow. Oh my
Valerie: The whole thing. And then when you listened to a record at that age, it's almost like the singer singing directly to you anyway. Right? And then to have her say those words.
China: Yes.
Valerie: Incredible.
China: It was.
Valerie: So your mom had to leave you with your dad who was struggling with bipolar disorder. And at that time, the disease was really not a well understood. In fact, it's still not, but we know a little bit more about it. What was it like living with your dad?
China: It was messy, literally. Um, it was messy in every way. Not a lot of routine. Erratic behavior, erratic, lifestyle changes. Like my dad might be just depressed and lying on his bed and unable to do anything or high energy and wanting to meet all the neighbors and help everyone around and get us to play with the kids across the hall.
And like, we were in an apartment building with a lot of other families. And so it was embarrassing. You know, we were always cringing at my dad's behavior, but of course our friends always thought he was the coolest because he was like a kid and he was fun and he would make us homemade bread and butter and honey, and bring it to us while we were playing Risk or whatever, you know, like he wanted to get us all together and, dote on us because he didn't really have much to do.
He wasn't able to really hold down a job for long. He had different jobs along the way, but there was a lot of free time and, we kind of had to push him away because he thought like, I'll come along with you to that party. Or, you know, let me drive all your friends home or, you know, he just wanted to be around and we did not want him around all the time.
But there are people who have suffered horrible, abusive childhoods. Mine was not like that. it was probably unfathomable to most people, but there was so much love. And my dad was such a good doting parent and he was there for every lacrosse game and every play we were in and everything we ever did, he was there.
And who can say that about a dad? You know, there's not that many dads who can be there for everything. So especially back then. So, uh, the stay at home dad concept was not so popular back then.
Valerie: Right.
China: So it was wild. I mean, I wouldn't change a thing. It was vividly, uh, indelible and made both Maya and me artists, because we had to make sense of it for the rest of our lives.
[00:11:42] Infinitely Polar Bear
Valerie: Maya is a filmmaker and she actually made a film about your family during this time period. What did it feel like to watch your family's story unfold on the big screen?
China: It was thrilling. the first time I saw the finished edit was at the Sundance Film Festival. And we were in the Eccles Center. And I was sitting forward in my seat, like on the edge of my seat, literally, and just smiling up at the light of the screen and just feeling like I'm in heaven, I'm watching my childhood again.
I get to see it come to life. It's, it's all the memories, but they're there before me. It was very, singular and so lucky. I can't believe I got to have that experience.
Valerie: Amazing that she could pull that off. Right?
China: So amazing.
Valerie: You lived that life and she, has different memories than you do. And yet you felt like you were really watching your family. You could suspend your disbelief in other words.
China: She, captured so many great details and, there's definitely always things where like, I would've done that differently or my character was kind of a smaller part of the movie because of course it was more from her perspective. And, and so my character may, may have come across as just like bratty, but it still, worked.
Like she captured the sassiness of me, but of course, I would have liked a little bit more of a complete character. But other than that, I really, I'm so impressed. She had never directed before.
Valerie: Amazing. And her daughter played her in the movie and the little girl that played you, I'm forgetting her name now.
China: Ashley Aufterheide.
Valerie: Uh, She was great at being sassy.
China: She really was. She was so cute.
Valerie: I just laughed at so many of those parts And yet it was really a roller coaster ride.
And, and as you said, when you go through that kind of childhood, you need to make sense of it for the rest of your life. So how have you done that? And are you still making sense of it or if you kind of come to peace with it.
China: I've definitely come to peace with it. I feel, I feel quite lucky to have had it actually. I can't imagine what my son's going to write about. I mean, he, he has divorced parents. He hasn't had the kind of life I had. My sister's three children have had such a cush life in Los Angeles, you know, compared to what we had.
And it just sort of, you kind of worry that the kids are going to go soft. You know, they haven't had any struggles. I felt very prepared for the ups and downs of life and the difficulties that were, are going to come to everyone. And the very specific intimate knowledge that love is the most important thing.
It's like, you don't have a, a nice house. You don't have a stable parent, you don't have whatever, but you have the love of your parent and that's all you need. I know, I know that people who didn't have that love are filling that hole for the rest of their lives too. And I'm not filling a hole like that.
I'm sort of instead trying to have like the most cozy, beautiful house I can possibly have because that's not what I had growing up and I wanted it so badly. And so like, I'm very motivated to beautify my environment all the time, but you know, that's a healthy outcome I think.
Valerie: Wow. That is a healthy outcome.
Your mom was bad-ass. I mean,
China: She still is. She's 80.
Valerie: She's still going strong, right?
China: She's so young at 80. Yeah.
Valerie: She was the first African-American woman to start an investment management firm and growth equity management in the United States.
China: That's pretty cool.
Valerie: That's really cool.
Did any of her business acumen show up in you? Was there any genetic flow-through?
China: No, not at all. In fact, she wanted me to work for her company when I was right out of college and I wanted to be an actor and I was doing musical theater in New York and, sort of trying to work there during the day, but I didn't get any of it. And I didn't understand why anyone would be excited about any of it.
So I, it just did not work for me.
Valerie: Yeah. It's funny. Cause I don't think most singers have this... I mean, maybe they have a mathematical bent or a science bent of some kind, I've met some singers like that, but most of us are like, oh, please
China: I know I do not
Valerie: don't make me
do that.
China: Like the paperwork, I think. Cause I had, I was always on financial aid, growing up and the paperwork of it. I would just make me, my eyes would scramble and I couldn't even think when I looked at it.
Valerie: So speaking of schools, your mom's plan actually worked. You ended up going to a private school, Phillips Exeter Academy, which is a boarding school in New Hampshire and then you went to Harvard for college. Did you feel a lot of expectation to succeed from your parents after all that they went through to get you into these schools?
China: You would think, right?
Valerie: Yeah.
China: But they weren't really that kind of parents. Like my parents were not the kind of, I mean, my mom's dad was a doctor, so of course she always wished everyone would be a doctor the way that a lot of parents do, but she didn't actually pressure us to do that. It was just sort of like, you should be a doctor. Okay. You're not being a doctor.
I mean, they didn't, they didn't put that kind of pressure on us. And so no, after all that. I think that I achieved a huge thing for my mom in that I went to those schools. But in terms of trying to become summa cum laude in some sort of amazing academic track, I was not that person. I was never that interested in the, that part of school. It was more like I take art classes and I'm a painter and I do music and I'm in bands and I do tons of theater and yes, I took cultural revolution, but I don't remember that much about it. And you know, it's not, it wasn't really the classes that I was there for. I was just more kind of like following this path that my mom and sister laid for me. Cause my sister went there too. And she was older.
Valerie: Did you put any expectation on yourself to succeed?
China: Not pressure to succeed in like I have to get all A's and be at the top of my class, but I always was succeeding in lots of ways, you know? So it's like, I'm painting paintings, I'm writing an essay that was actually published. You know, it's like I was a creative writer, so I was always interested in that part of school.
And I got like huge roles in musicals that as a freshman, you know, it's like these huge successes were happening for me, but it wasn't the typical successes that you think of when you think of kids going to Harvard and they're going to be successful. It was more like the artistic aspects of, of college.
Valerie: Yeah.
China: But that's fine. And I met Thomas Lauderdale who was in my dorm and that's been a huge, part of my life and led me down a different road to the Pacific Northwest where I came because of him to sing in Pink Martini. So I've been in Pink Martini now for 27 years. So it's, it's like, I guess I went to the right school.
Valerie: Yeah. And who would have thought, because it's really not a school known for its arts programs.
China: Right. I should've gone to Berkeley, but it's too late now.
Valerie: Right. And then you wouldn't have met Thomas.
China: Exactly.
Valerie: Wow. Talk about a pivotal moment in one's life.
China: Yes.
[00:19:17] Meeting Thomas Lauderdale
Valerie: He was a classical pianist and at the time you were playing in rock bands. So what was it about Thomas that drew you to him and why do you think you became friends?
China: It was that he was drawn to me. I didn't really know him. I had been in Evita, freshmen fall and it was like the main stage production. It was a huge deal. I got a really great review and he saw it. And so he knew who I was and he came to me and said, I'm a pianist. And I'd love to accompany you. What do you want to sing most in the world?
And I was, and I said opera. And he said, Oh, which arias? And I told him, and he got them from the library and we would get together late at night because he was on the house committee of our big, huge dorm of 500 people dorm. It's like a big suite of buildings. And he would open the door to the lower common room, play the piano in this echo-y room, and I would sing opera in the dark. And it was our little secret.
Valerie: Oh, how wonderful.
China: And that was just something I always wanted to do, but I didn't, pursue seriously, but it was just like, oh my God, I want to sing all of these beautiful arias.
So we did that and he's, full of fun and enthusiasm and positive energy, you know, and he's very encouraging and has always been a champion of so many artists and that was clear right away.
And so he would just keep things going. He just has a great way of keeping the momentum going, and we would just continually get together to do this. And then over time, he accompanied me doing this sort of open mic thing in our dorm that was really fun. And then he produced Dream Girls and I was in it and you know, so we worked, on some theater productions too, and we were just friends like that.
[00:21:12] The Snack Master
China: But he thought I was funny because there is this time in college where I saw an infomercial when I should have been studying on TV that was so hilarious because it was for something called the Snack Master, which was like a, before a panini maker. You can make a little triangular sealed pocket of whatever you want.
And the woman on the infomercial had a thick, Midwestern accent, and it was mesmerizing as she went through all of the different things you could do with the snack master. And I thought it was so funny that I ordered one with my Amex and then it never showed up. And then I told people in the dining hall about it, and Thomas loved my story about this infomercial.
So when he went back to Portland and he started Pink Martini, and then he wasn't finding the singer of his dreams, he, called me in New York City and asked me to come to Portland and persuaded me to come sing for the weekend. And then while I was there, he said, will you do the snack master?
And he got out a tape recorder and he recorded about a seven-minute spontaneous monologue that we still laugh at today.
Valerie: Oh my God. Where does that exist? I need to hear this.
China: It's really funny. I do think we should release it on our joke album someday.
Valerie: That's fantastic. What a great story.
China: There's so many lines from it that we use all the time in conversation. Like, prepare the ingredients in advance, so you don't get bogged down with cutting and slicing, you know, like we're always like don't get bogged down with cutting and slicing, and things like that.
Valerie: It became a lifetime meme it sounds like for you guys.
China: I guess so.
Valerie:
Okay, so let's back up just a teeny bit. Because after college, you moved to New York and lived with your mom for three years, thinking that you were going to be an, You started auditioning for musicals. You got a few roles, you got your Equity card, and then you realized you didn't want to pursue acting. So you decided to focus on music and formed and sang with your own band. And released your first solo album, Love Handle, in 1995. And then you were chosen to sing Ordinary Girl, the theme song to the TV show, Clueless, which is kind of a big deal. Right?
And so it sounds like your music career in New York was building momentum, but then like you said, you got this call from Thomas who was desperate for you to come to Portland, not just because of the Snack Master, but because he'd fired a singer and needed a replacement.
So what made you say yes when you had all this stuff going on in your career?
[00:23:59] Saying Yes to Pink Martini
China: Oh my God. Well, the first time he called, I said no, because it was really, quite far away. I didn't really, it wasn't kind of music that I was doing or thought I would ever do. He was like, what if I, what he kept sweetening the deal. And he's like, what if I pay you this? And I was like, no.
And he's like, how about this? How about this? You know? And it got to the point where I was like, I guess I can't say no. So I went and then I, you know, I met Bruce Carey who owned Zefiro Restaurant and later Blue Hour and we became best friends. You know, I've met, I met Adam Levy right away who then later 10 years later I had a child with, after, you know, we, we didn't get together right away, but I met all of these very important people in my life the day I landed in Portland.
And then Thomas was so persuasive and kept having me come back.
Valerie: For like three years, right?
China: Yes, yes. And it was back when Delta had the non-stop flight before anyone else did. So I had this amazing amount of frequent flyer miles, cause I was basically commuting and. Then something happened.
So I did the Clueless thing and I had released an album and I was trying to get that solo career going. But then my dad got pancreatic cancer.
Valerie: Mmm.
China: And it was sort of like, like, everything suddenly became about that. And I wanted to be with my dad cause they gave him six months to live. And so I left New York. I didn't go to do Pink Martini stuff. And I was just basically with him as much as possible.
And when he died, I had this feeling of, oh my God, do I want to go back to New York and try to pick up where I left off? Or should I just go to Portland and ride this train that Thomas has started that is really moving now.
[00:25:57] Sympathique
China: You know, cause we'd already released Sympathique and written that song together and it was like successful and things were really starting to happen for Pink Martini. And it just felt like, why would I pursue this thing that's a lot of work and not quite off the ground when I'm in something else that's definitely starting to move?
Valerie: Yeah, the train had left the station. There was a ton of momentum. That song! And yeah. And who knew because from what I've read you, weren't taking it really seriously when you were recording that song. You just kind of wrote it together and then made a record and then it got put out and it became a smash.
China: Yeah, so crazy. I mean, when Thomas said, I want to record an album, it felt so premature. I was, I was not understanding why we were doing that. Um, cause we were just playing, you know, playing parties and events, you know, it just didn't feel like that. But then he was so right and it was so good that we did that then.
And our song became such a big hit and was nominated for Song of the Year at the French Grammys, which was so cool but we lost to a rap group.
Valerie: Weird, weird!
China: But now, you know, now the song, which is, that's on Emily and Paris, the new show on Netflix.
Valerie: I didn't know that. That's great!
China: It's not only is it, it's not just like in the background of a cafe scene, it's one of the characters wants to be a singer and she sings it twice on the show.
Valerie: Oh, that's fantastic.
China: It's like the quintessential French song.
Valerie: It's become an iconic song for French people -which is a wonderful thing 27 years later.
China: It is. It's so weird and cool.
Valerie: 27 years, that is a really long, I mean, that's more than a quarter of a century. When you are able to say those things, doesn't it feel kind of crazy?
China: It is very confusing. It doesn't feel like that long at all, but who knows, who knows how long we'll go.
[00:28:55] Musical Ambassadors
Valerie: In 2005, you described Pink Martini this way, a quote, We see ourselves as musical ambassadors. We're trying to portray a side of America that people don't see, maybe a bit more intellectual and a little bit more broad speaking in different languages and traveling the world. George Bush's America might be isolated and not interested in the outside world, but there are vast numbers of Americans who are not like that.
I love that. So, do think, differently about Pink Martini's role in the world all these years later? Or do you feel like you're still musical ambassadors?
China: That's really Thomas's line, but I do feel like we have always been that. I mean, what we are is so inclusive and we have the ability to travel all over the world and actually connect more directly with our fans because we sing songs in their language. And that has been really wonderful.
After Obama became president we didn't feel that same pressure to like prove to the world that Americans aren't, like that, you know, like the way that everyone thought they were. But then after Obama, we had to go back to that. We had to go back to showing a different side, but, I think all of us, everyone in the band feels really good about that.
Valerie: Well, music is such a universal language, and to be able to just to sing in all the languages that you do, how many languages do you sing in?
[00:30:27] How to Sing in 25 Different Languages
China: I have sung in like 25 languages.
Valerie: Oh my goodness.
China: It's weird.
Valerie: Do you do it phonetically?
China: I do it fanatically. No. do it. I do do it phonetically. I speak French and Italian and then Spanish is close enough. So I get Spanish. The rest of the languages are, you know, phonetic because I have no idea how to speak those other languages, but I just try really hard to master the sounds and the meaning and the feeling of the song.
And then I just pretend that I'm a little bit tipsy and I just sort of blur everything a little and then it sounds more authentic.
Valerie: I love that. I'm going to try that time I'm trying to sing in a different language.
China: Cause I think people, they over pronounce when they're trying really hard to be perfect.
Valerie: Yes.
China: And then it doesn't sound realistic.
Valerie: Right, because really it's about the vowel sound. If you put that little bit of tipsiness in there, it's like, you're moving from vowel sound to vowel sound and deemphasizing, the consonants, right? When you're just a little tipsy and then sing those consonants like you do when you're tight.
China: Right!
Valerie: So that's perfect.
[00:31:45] How To Pack For Touring
Valerie: Speaking of universal language and touring, I've always wondered how you pack a suitcase. You've got gowns and shoes and makeup, and I, I just can't imagine that you travel light, especially since you're gone for weeks or even sometimes months at a time.
So after all of the shows you've done, do you have a comprehensive packing list for tours?
China: I do, but you know, I have, it's like summer packing, European packing, you know, it's, um, winter packing, short trips, long trips, there's different lists.
Valerie: How many suitcases?
China: Just two.
Valerie: Amazing.
China: I feel like I get so much resistance from people because I have two suitcases, which it seems like, are you crazy? How do you do what I do and not have two suitcases? But I have one suitcase for my personal life and one for my dressing room.
Valerie: Perfect.
China: I used to not do it that way. And then I'd always be sort of transferring things from place to place and it was such a pain. So then I decided the dressing room's suitcase is like my gear and it's part of the show and it can go with the gear every day and I carry around my other suitcase or wheel around. It's frustrating because even if a trip is five weeks, it's still you, can't like if you bring a lot of stuff, you never get to all that stuff.
You know? I feel like I'm skimming off the top and I should just bring like a very small amount of personal things, but it never happens.
Valerie: I don't know about you, but I get worried that I'm, I'm gonna be out of something that's important and not be able to buy it wherever I am. So it's just better to bring a little bit too much. And especially if you're going to be gone a long period of time.
China: Yes.
[00:33:31] Motherhood & Creativity
Valerie: Speaking of a long period of time, there was a long time between Sympathique and the band's second CD, Hang On Little Tomato.
And I know there was a lot of pressure for the follow-up because the first record was so successful. The band was, was getting antsy though. And you were in your mid-thirties by then and wanted to have a baby. So finally the record was done and, um, released in 2004. And then, of course, it was successful and there were more tours. And the third CD, Hey, Eugene came out in 2009. And then that same year you released your own solo record, 78, and then your life changed again in a huge way and you became a mom when your son Cameron was born.
You alluded before to the fact that you know, your mom had to leave you, uh, Donna Summer had to leave her child all the time. And here you are, leaving your child behind. Did motherhood come easy to you? Was it different than you imagined it would be?
China: It was not easy. It was. Yes. I think I was delusional because I mean, there was definitely, I felt like I spent my thirties cause I had, I had him right before I turned 39. So like most of my thirties, I was, fretting about, am I going to have a baby? Am I not going to have a baby? Do I want to have, do I want to have a baby?
Maybe not. Like my sister had babies and I thought, oh my God, I don't know if I can handle this. But then I finally realized as I was getting up there that I really did want to, and then, pregnancy was heaven for me, heaven because I've always been asked if I'm pregnant because my stomach sticks out a lot and my limbs are more thin.
So people always think that I'm pregnant to the point where they don't even wonder, they just blurt out, Like, when are you due? You know? It's like, oh my God.
Valerie: Never ask someone that question. Never, never, never.
China: Never, I won't ask even people who are about to go into labor if they're pregnant. But, um, I, I was so happy when I was pregnant because I could say, yes, I am pregnant. It was so I didn't have to hold it in my stomach. It was so heavenly. I didn't really have any horrible complications. It was so great.
And then I had the baby, and he was outside of my body. And suddenly everything was so complicated. You know, it was like easy to bring him around with me when I was pregnant. Um, suddenly I needed to have a nanny and go on tour with a baby and I had postpartum depression and it was really horrible. And I didn't really feel connected when he was a tiny baby. You know, it was just really horrible And I can't, I don't know. I just feel like people don't realize that it's not so great for everyone.
I mean, I think now people are much more aware of that, but it really takes you by surprise. Cause you're so happy when the baby's born and you can't believe like you're so lucky that you had this baby and this is so great. And then suddenly everything changes and like crashes into this horrible pit of despair.
Valerie: I think it's, it's really hard because up until just this very moment in our culture, you didn't talk about it that much, except maybe with good friends who were all, also mothers to say, wow, maybe we were delusional, you know, in thinking we could do this. Because it is much harder. I don't know about you, but I felt really guilty about some of the feelings that I was having.
China: Yes. Oh yeah. It's just really, it's really tough especially if you're like having chemical imbalances, you know, and you don't, you just, you, you actually cannot connect because of the way you're feeling. But I finally, came out of that and I've had a great time with my son, he's so funny and cute and hilarious. And I wrote down everything he ever said that was funny and just made a book for his 13th birthday called Cam Said, and it's all of the things he ever said and all the pictures of him at those ages.
And it's so so cool. It's so cool.
And he read it out loud to both of his grandmothers.
Valerie: Oh!
China: And loved it.
Valerie: I bet they were in heaven. What a great idea.
China: It was really good, except they weren't in heaven cause some of it's wildly inappropriate, but they liked it up to a point.
Valerie: since So, yeah. So, how long did it take you to come out of that postpartum depression?
China: Um, it was about six to six to eight months.
Valerie: Hmm. Did your hormones just change or did you do anything specific?
China: I had to take medication. Yeah. I couldn't, it wasn't happening on its own.
Valerie: Yeah, and I think a lot of times women don't ask for the help they need. But you were probably desperate. How soon after he was born, did you go on tour?
China: I went on tour in May. He was born in February.
Valerie: Wow.
China: So he was three months.
Valerie: Three months old. And you took a nanny with you on the tour, you said. And then where you breastfeeding and backstage and then running onstage?
China: Oh my God. Yeah, I was, I was breastfeeding, up until 15 months, so he toured the, you know, until he was 15 months and I would breastfeed and go on stage and then come off. And I don't know, I don't how graphic I want to get on the, on the, on the airways, but let's just say it was an emergency, like things, things build up and you release them or there's a mad, uh, it's kind of like a fire hydrant. Let's just say that.
Valerie: Wow. Yeah. It's stressful. I don't, I mean, touring is stressful. And then to have this little one that you know is dependent on you, along with the whole audience being dependent on you and the band dependent on you for showing up and singing. It's a lot of, it's a lot of stress.
China: It is.
[00:39:40] Tell Me Your Secrets. How do you get your work done when you're a parent?
Valerie: I have a friend and a former student who's the mother of a three-year-old daughter. She's the thing ever, so adorable. And Rebecca loves her to pieces, but she posted this question one day on Facebook. Artists with children. Tell me your secrets. How do you get your work done? What are your patterns? How do you treat yourself when you can't get to your work?
I thought those were such good questions I'd love to ask them of you. How do you get your work done?
China: Now at this age?
Valerie: Yeah. Now. I mean, I'm sure that it's changed over the years.
China: Well, I'm a night person. And yet my studio is at my piano, which is, you know, in the main room of my house and above Cameron's bedroom. So when it's nighttime, I can't really do stuff, you know? I can't really play the piano or record anything. So I try to get it done. Like I've been forced to get it done during school hours.
It's just not what, it's not the creative time of my dreams, but, it does help a little bit. I found that having a child imposed a schedule on me that was actually a bit helpful because it wasn't just never-ending, undefined time. It was like, you have only this many hours to get it done.
And so it's motivating in that way. But the hard thing is when they're napping, but you want to take a nap too, and that's probably what you should do, but. You kind of have to just like accept. I it's all about acceptance. Like you're not going to get your work done and just deal with it.
Like you cannot do it all. You can't do everything perfectly all the time. So maybe give yourself some time or hire a caregiver to give yourself like a day here and there where you have more time.
Valerie: Right where you can really dive in. Because some sometimes, I mean, I agree with you when you have a set time period and you know that like, okay, I've got an hour and this is, what I have to just throw down. Um, there's no dinking about. And then you just have to get right to work. But then I know that I, I used to really miss those longer expansive times where I could really drill down into something in a way where I knew I wouldn't have to come back out of it for a while, you know, two or three hours.
China: Right. Oh my God. That's heaven. I love that. I, because it's so hard for me, it's hard to muster the energy to start, but once I'm started, I never want to stop. And it's always annoying that like these other things stop you and you can never like really have that immersion that you're craving.
So I think it's knowing that they're going to grow up and this is a short window of time. It feels like it never ends and it will never change. But that was the thing motherhood made me realize is everything is a phase. And as hard as some of the phases feel, they really aren't going to last that long.
So just maybe try to enjoy the things that are happening in that phase. Like how darn cute that little three-year-old is.
Valerie: Yes.
China: Because you wish that you could see her again when she's 10.
Valerie: Yes. I miss little three-year-old Malcolm, our son, so much, but yet the 27-year-old version is so spectacular! I mean, he's a wonderful, wonderful human being. And I'm just so grateful. I can have deep discussions about so many things with him, but it did, it does go really fast. And I think that if I could go back and just talk to myself and about, you know, parenthood in that time, I would say just don't miss it.
Just, I know people tell you that all the time, but somehow slow down enough so that you can.
China: Yes, it's so true.
Valerie: Yeah. So the pandemic was kind of, uh, a boon in some ways for you because you didn't have to travel and you got to spend more time with him.
China: I've never had that much time with him before. It was such a gift. And it's hard because you don't want to feel positive about something that was so hard, you know, and so devastating for so many people. And some people had unbelief bearable loss, and so it's very confusing. Cause you kind of have to hold both of those things.
But for some of us who never get to be home to be told to not leave home was heaven. You know, some people felt like they wanted to be social and they were trapped. I felt like, oh my God, I'm an introvert and I never want to leave.
So I got to be with my son, be home I did a lot of creative work and it was great for me. But I wouldn't be saying that if I had lost somebody, you know.
Valerie: Right, right. No, but especially if you're an introvert and your job is so extroverted...
China: Which I didn't know I was an introvert really. I've had inklings, but I think I'm, I don't know what the right term for me is. You know, there's introverted extroverts and I'm clearly an extrovert too. I don't know what, what's the word for me? Cause I, I'm not scared of social situations and I love them, but I don't need them for my energy and what I need for my energy is to be alone.
So I think I'm more of an introvert.
Valerie: There's a word for that. I'll think of it in the middle of the night and I won't call you.
China: I know! It's an extroverted introvert, right?
Valerie: It's an extrovert, but there's a, there's an in-between it's a whole word on its own. That's kind of both. Yeah. Yes, I will. I will look it up and, and let you know what it is. Cause it's, ah, it's not like bi-vert.
China: A multi-vert?
Valerie: No.
China: I'm gonna call myself make a multi-vert though. I that better.
Valerie: A multi-vert.
Excuse me but I had to pop in here post-interview to say I remembered the word! It's ambivert. Someone who is both introverted and extroverted is an ambivert. Okay, back to our conversation.
[00:45:57] Recovering From Vocal Trauma
Valerie: So, um, there's all these pivot points in your life. Your mom goes to school, which enables you to get a really great education. You meet Thomas and become the lead singer for Pink Martini. You become a parent. And then there's another pivot point that I'd really like to talk to you about in regards to your voice.
Um, because in 2011, uh, you were losing it at shows and had difficulty recovering in between performances. And in the 15 years, you'd been with Pink Martini, you've never missed a gig, but then your voice started becoming hoarse. And you were diagnosed with vocal fold polyps, which are blister-like lesions on the vocal cords and yours were hemorrhaging.
The blister would break and fill the vocal cord with blood. That's a vocal emergency. That's a complete vocal emergency requiring vocal rest. You have 12 people in the band, a big weekend at the Kennedy Center with The National Symphony coming up in just a matter of days. Uh, what happens next? What do you do?
China: Oh, God. Well, you remove yourself from the plan. And luckily Thomas got Storm Large to fill in for me. And so the concert was going to go forward. And I went to see Dr. Josh Schindler at OHSU, and he's the one who diagnosed me. And he said I needed surgery to remove them because they would probably keep hemorrhaging.
I went to Seattle to get a second opinion. He said the same thing. So I ended up having the surgery here with Dr. Schindler. And it's so scary because obviously singing has been like my companion, my whole life. And it's my career. And also, I just love singing. I love, I just love singing on and off stage.
So I didn't want to lose that. And the chances are pretty good that you're going to be okay. It's like a 98% success rate, but still, it's so, so precarious. It's such a precarious surgery. They'd go down your throat. Like they don't cut, into you or anything, but they go down in your throat and they have to kind of with special tools, microscopically remove these things.
Valerie: I got to see a surgery one time.
China: Oh my God. Was it fun?
Valerie: It was for one of my students who had polyps — a polyp. And I got to see, through a camera, some of the surgery, it was fascinating. It's a pretty bloodless surgery, but, again, I mean, this is your voice. Not just your singing voice, but your speaking voice, which is also hugely affected, and it's so much a part of who you are.
It was really fascinating. I felt very lucky as her teacher to be able to be in the room I'm a doctor's daughter so I was like, I can handle it. I'm not going to faint or anything.
But it was, um, really impactful in terms of seeing how tiny these little things are.
China: And how big an effect they have.
Valerie: Yes.
China: The polyp is so tiny, but it changes everything.
Valerie: Huge. Plus I had vocal nodules myself, so I know what it feels like to not be able to use your voice in the way that you're accustomed. And it's like having two pieces of balsa wood.
China: Oh, God
Valerie: You know, that won't vibrate.
China: Right. Jammed.
Valerie: Yeah.
China: Blocked. Separated. just, it's terrible.
Valerie: Terrifying. Yeah. So the surgery went well though.
China: The surgery went well. And he said your vocal cords after I, you know, came back from my follow-up, he was like, they look like my two-year-old son's vocal cords now.
Valerie: lovely,
China: Like they were perfect and the polyps were gone.
Valerie: But how long was it before you could really trust your voice again and how did you rehabilitate?
China: I saw the speech pathologist throughout, um, to learn sort of a way to speak that was easier on the voice, which is really unappealing. It's like, hi, how are you? How do I talk up here? And I don't even use my vocal cords, you know. But that's what you should do if you're losing your voice. You should not talk like I'm talking now with like low glottal attacks.

Valerie: I need to interrupt here one last time. I'm not sure what kind of sound China's speech therapist was trying to get her to do for her vocal health, but this high breathy sound isn't healthy. More airflow across the vocal cords can actually dry them out, making any vocal fold issues worse. When I had vocal nodules, I had to learn how to talk correctly, to heal, and save my voice for singing.
What I learned and taught for years is that you don't need to speak in pure upper register, because like China said, that's completely unappealing, but you can pitch your voice up and talk naturally like I am right now. If I was completely relaxed, I would be talking down here in the lowest part of my voice and causing more vocal problems.
I have a podcast episode that goes deeper into this subject. If you're interested, you can find the link in the show notes.
Back to the interview.
China: So anyway, I did all of that. And then I read, well, you can't talk for another period of like 10 days after the surgery. So there's a lot of silence when my son was just two, which was really hard because he was confused by what was going on. and then I was back on stage. The surgery was in August and by November I was performing again.
Valerie: Wow. That's really fast. And then you started taking voice lessons.
China: Yes. I had tried to over the years, but it was sort of catch as catch can. I finally teamed up with Angela Niederhloh- Hayward and she and I had a great time doing vocal lessons. So fun.
Valerie: I read that you found a new joy in singing and being a part of Pink Martini again after your voice returned.
China: It's the kind of thing where you've been doing something for so long, there's definitely a conversation you're always having with yourself about am I do I like this, I love this. How long can I do this? I'm tired. I'm missing my child. You know, I'm always thinking about these issues and questioning everything.
And maybe I'm tired of this. And oh my God, people always ask, how do you sing the same song every night for so many years? And
Valerie: Believe me. I know that one.
China: I bet! And you'd have to find ways to make it exciting again, or like, love it again. And, but there's nothing quite like almost losing your voice and having to stop because of that to make you appreciate what you had. And it, I just came back with a new feeling of like, oh my God, I do. I, it gave me the clarity through all those questions. I'm always having. I suddenly was clear. Yes, I love this. Yes, I miss this. Yes. I want to do this. I don't want to stop this. And so it made it really nice because I didn't have to have that fretting in the background until 10 more years passed and now who knows what fretting is in the background, but
Valerie: New fretting in the background occurs just on its own. It arises. Yes.
I also read that before you developed the polyp that you didn't want to take voice lessons because you didn't want to sound like a classical singer. But I got confused because you used to sing opera with Thomas.
China: Right, but I never studied it.
[00:53:50] Singing With A Classical "Accent"
Valerie: Because you were afraid that a classical teacher would make you sing everything with a classical accent?
China: Exactly. Well, I've, I've seen opera singers try to sing pop music and it's like, oh my God. Terrible. and so I didn't want to become that kind of person who was so well trained in this one way of singing that I could not adjust back to the other way.
Valerie: But that hasn't happened.
China: I study opera with Angie just like specific Arias that I want to learn, and she's not re-shaping me as She's just giving me like great techniques to get what I'm trying to get the sounds I'm trying to get. It's different. I think it's different than if you start out fully trained as an opera singer because you probably then don't learn any other way to sing. But for me, not happen because I know the other way.
Valerie: Yeah. Uh, there's a, there's a few, not a lot, but there are a few successful, opera singers that have also sung like jazz.
China: Like Renee Fleming.
Valerie: Renee Fleming, to a degree. Um, Eileen Farrell. I don't know if you know who she is. She was a star on the opera stage in the fifties. And when she started singing jazz, she released a jazz record and she's amazing. She really does not have an opera accent. And, but the opera world said, Oh, my God, she's gonna lose her voice. She's gonna, you know, it's going to be terrible for her. But, she didn't, she just was able to sing well into her seventies, I think?
So my mom was an opera singer, so I was never going to be a singer. and then, of course, I didn't want to sing opera at my lessons either. But what I found was that it was like lifting heavy weights. And so then when I would, you know, I'd lift this heavy weight and get my voice up to a place where I could sing higher notes and stretch and have more, um, muscle density so that I could sing louder without hurting myself. And then when I'd go out on stage and sing pop music, it was like, oh, I'd take the weight off and it's, it's just easy.
You know. Did you have a similar experience? Cause it seems like your voice is so much stronger and you have more control over it than you've ever then you've ever had.
China: Um, thank you. Ah, You know, there's times it's weird for what I do sometimes in Pink Martini shows is I sing an aria in the show and then I go back to singing like Hey Eugene, right afterward. so it's a very weird to go from one to the other, but it's just like a different mindset or it's a different body set, you know?
So maybe that's what you mean by the lifting heavy weights. But there's something for me, it's clearer how to support an operatic voice than just my regular singing because I never trained to do that. So maybe that's what it is. Maybe it's that I've learned these techniques and in order to sing, a high B flat. And, like move between the intervals with the vowel sounds and the, you know, all of the techniques and singing through a phrase instead of my instinct, which is to sort of get to the first word and then sort of park myself there and not remember that I have to go forward, you know. Like all of that.
Valerie: I've had that same issue. Yes.
China: Yeah. And so there's all these techniques I can draw on when I'm singing opera that make it really kind of satisfying. And then with my other, it's just sort of like, oh, this is just more natural, it's like, I don't think about the techniques,
Valerie: Hmm.
China: But then again, sometimes there are times where I wish I had more of them to work with.
Valerie: I found any way that with my students and myself, that it's hard when you've learned something a certain way cause your body just goes on autopilot and the old habits might not be the best ones. So by taking those away, it feels like, it takes your foundation away. And so you have to kind of rebuild the foundation with the new habit underneath the old until it becomes strong enough to take over.
And that can be a long process actually. Yeah, it takes about a year and a half to two years is what I've found.
China: from one to another?
Valerie: Well. Yeah. And of course, all along the way, you can learn things and get better and there can be aha moments and things can click and all of that, but to really kind of redo a whole system, it just takes that it just takes a little longer. To where it becomes automatic and you and your body don't reach for the old paradigm. It needs a totally new one.
[00:58:36] Sharing The Stage With Storm Large
Valerie: So, wow. That's a big deal. And I think another big deal is that someone took over for you because this happened. And of course, yay, because Storm Large is an exceptional talent and she's got a ton of energy and a fabulous voice, and it enabled you to go through this time period and heal and then come back.
And yet I know for myself, I would, well, I'll just tell you. Um, years ago in our band, we had a backup singer that I thought was a way better singer than I am. She's a totally fabulous Soul, R&B, and Funk singer. And, um, I went into the recording studio one day and, they had replaced my lead vocal with hers.
And I was like devastated because I was insecure about my voice and that just sealed the deal. I was like, okay, she was better. And now the whole world's going to know it. so when you're, you're a singer, your instrument is your body, it's you. And that makes it so hard. Because I want to be a team player and when working with other singers, I want to feel like we're all in it together, but comparisonitis is a real thing. And so the more insecure I feel about my abilities, the more likely that insecurity will rear its ugly head.
So did you have any feelings of insecurity at this point in your life? And if you did, how did you work through those feelings?
China: Well, of course, I had insecurities. Um, but I think the thing that I come back to, the whole reason this even happened to me because I had a child. When you have a child, your vocal cords are vulnerable. So when he was a toddler and he would get colds, I would get colds too. And I would sing through them anyway and go on tour with these colds.
And then I would be unhappy being away from him and feel like, is this worth it? Am I, am I missing my child's life for something that's worth it? Am I even having fun anymore? You know, like all of the fretting. So when it, built up this, this, the colds and the vulnerable vocal cords, cause it is a thing like the hormones make your vocal cords, I think softer? It's elastin it softens before childbirth so that you can have the baby.
So, like, I think the vocal cords do too. Rosanne Cash talked about this. And so it made sense, like, I'm, I'm getting sick, I'm already vulnerable. I'm doing too much. Suddenly I'm losing my voice and I'm questioning whether I can do this anymore. Then I lose my voice. I get replaced by, uh, Storm and I go through, you know, whatever down period.
And then I come back thinking, no, I do want to do this. I still don't really want to be traveling constantly. So Thomas kept Storm involved and we shared the job, which was helpful to me because I wanted to be with Cameron. So it's sort of the thing where it's like, whether you're insecure, you're bummed that like someone else is doing your job.
You're also grateful that they're doing your job because it's making your life better. And, and also you have to remember the thing that we all have to remember that we can't seem to remember, but we need to be reminded to remember, which is no one else is you.
And who cares if the backup singer is amazing and took over for you on a song, she's not you, she didn't sing I Can't Wait. You, you know, it's like, that's you other people can be amazing. It doesn't have to take away from the fact that you're amazing.
Valerie: Everyone has a different thing.
China: Yeah, we need to like make room for others and just remember that you have your own unique thing and there's good and bad parts about it, you know?
And so I try to tell myself that too, when I'm feeling insecure, um, and it's, you know, it's not always easy, but it's, definitely helpful I think to remember that.
Valerie: I appreciate you sharing that because I think a lot of singers don't talk about this particular kind of thing, you know? I think it's important, to always strive to improve, but also to enjoy who you are and, and how you're doing your thing in the moment. Because otherwise, I know I tie myself up in knots and I don't have fun. And then what is the point? And it translates into energy that the audience doesn't need, you know? We're here to bring them joy or make them feel different kinds of ways. So we have to be vehicles for that, right? Yeah.
[01:03:37] Solo Artist/Birth Canal
Valerie: So you've said it's been so fun to be in Pink Martini, sort of playing almost a character, being so glamorous and wearing the gowns and jewels and all of that, but that your own songs are definitely your heart and they're super personal.
You said, if I do a concert as a solo artist, I feel like I've gone through the birth canal again. It's like squeezing everything out of me and it's exhausting at the end because it's so raw. So yeah. And then you went on to say there's so there's a part of me that doesn't know if I could do that every night because it's tiring, but I kind of need to do it. So I'm lucky to get to do both.
It's been a long time since your last solo record. Like what, 15 years or something?
China: Oh my God. 14. Jeez, Louise.
Valerie: Well, you were busy, you had a little vocal trouble.
China: Yeah.
Valerie: Yeah. But I heard you've been working on some new songs and that you've got a new album coming out soon. Is that right?
China: I am. If I ever could work on it. Um, it's been in the works for years. I've, I've written, tons of songs that I love that I want to put on it. But right now I've been releasing singles on Spotify and Apple Music because I just want to get some of them out and not wait until the album is done.
Valerie: That's a good idea.
China: Yeah. So my song Full Circle came out and then my song Rise came out and that's exciting. And now I have to do the third one.
[01:05:03] Rise
Valerie: Please tell us about Rise. That's a that's wonderful, wonderful song about a really hard subject.
China: Rise is a song that I wrote, uh, for my bandmate, Derek who died by suicide. And it was a time when he was struggling a lot. And he was about to leave on a tour that I wasn't on. I was with them in Montreal and then they were going to go off to Europe and I was going to fly home.
And in the airport, he was, he looked so sad and he was telling me how grim he felt. And so I wrote a text to him, or I wrote a note actually in my phone, like thoughts for Derek. And I just was thinking like, okay, rise, rise to the surface of the water. Cause I felt like he was drowning. Um, so you can feel the sun on your face again.
And you know, don't worry, like it's, nothing's changed. It just feels different. But your life is the same as it was before, you know, like all these thoughts for him. I texted them to him as he was leaving on that plane. And then when he was on that tour, he actually was, uh, sent home and he ended up dying by suicide and I never saw him again.
Valerie: Wow.
China: And so when he died, of course, I was looking through my phone at everything we'd ever written to each other and all the pictures I had of him and, and just sort of looking for anything about him. And I saw that note and it just read like a lyric. And so I wrote the song for him.
And my whole feeling about the song was this was supposed to help Derek, but now I need to help someone else. Like this song is I want to be a song, a song of hope for people who are thinking about suicide. And that is what it is. And it's, it's, it's interesting. Cause tonight I'm going to the gala for Lions For Life, which is the local suicide prevention hotline. So it's like all about Rise today. Um, but yes, it's a really intense song.
Valerie: That's a really hard thing. I'm so glad that you're giving it a life that really celebrates his. because, uh, I've, I've had friends die from suicide too, and it's just a heartbreak forever.
China: Right.
Valerie: And to be
China: Right.
Valerie: And to be able to do something, and especially with music is... Does it feel like it's helpful to you as well?
China: It is helpful. That's the thing about when I was saying I've been making sense of my childhood for my whole life and because I became an artist because of my childhood, I have to write about whatever I'm dealing with, you know? And so it's always cathartic. I mean, from something as serious as Rise and suicide to something like this guy, I gave my number to never called me.
And I'm what the hell like he was so into me and I waited two weeks and then I wrote the song, Hey Eugene. And it was just like, so satisfying to sort of spill that story into a song that I'm still singing for 27 years. And I feel so happy that he never called. You know, turns things like that into a positive.
Valerie: Yes.
China: Because I have the song now. So it just helps me deal with my feelings.
Valerie: I love that. I think there's a lot of people out there who can relate to that.
So if there was something that you could tell our audience today, that would help them on their journey as a singer, what would it be?
China: I think the thing that one of my teachers in Portland, who I, I worked with, you know, a handful of times, named Marie Peak, she gave me some voice lessons. I was struggling with something I couldn't sing well or something. And she said, you know, just have fun. The audience won't care about anything if you're having fun.
Valerie: Nice.
China: And it was such a wonderful way to relax into the performance. And she also told me what, before you sing, when you breathe in smell roses, isn't that good?
Valerie: I love that.
China: So it like opens up your pallet and you like, feel very open when you're smelling a rose.
Oh, here's one more. Here's one more. I'm giving all of Marie's, tricks for free, but unfortunately, she passed away and I, I don't think she'll mind. Um, she was so lovely. But she said, fall in love with your own voice.
Valerie: Yes. Jessye Norman said that too.
China: Maybe that's where she got it.
Valerie: Yeah!
China: It's really good.
Valerie: It's a good one. Yeah. You have to fall in love with your own voice, especially in the studio in order to get that performance.
Well, thank you so much for your time today, China, especially you know, the week before you're going to be going on a European tour and you've got a gala, gala gala. You say gala, I say gala, um, tonight. And, uh I just really appreciate your open-heartedness about all the questions that I've asked you.
China: Well, thank you for your very wonderful questions. And also you did so much homework. You knew more about my life than I did. So that was pretty amazing.